Misogyne Club in Second Life – Harmless Role Play or Taking it to far?

Misogyne Club in Second Life – Harmless Role Play or Taking it to far?

For those who dont know what is, here a Wikipedia definition: Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

The Gor role play community has often been accused in puplic forums, to be misogynistic, because a great deal of the Gorean chronicles has to do with slaves, their mastery and the very stringent objectification of such slaves. I myself was attacked form certain individuals in the Second Live forums of „being evil for supporting evil“, just because, I openly admit that I used to play Gor in Second Life.

In my opinion, that is just bullshit. Somebody who plays a role in violent and sexist genre is just acting or pretending. He/she does that for the fun of it. Role players do distinct between other players and their characters and are very well aware, that its just a game, a story, an adventure. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as all players are treated with respect no matter what character they portray – including slave girl characters of course.

My question now is: Where do we draw the line? 

Why am I asking? Because I discovered on my travels a place, that is called the Misogyne Club, which makes Gor look like Bambi in comparison. No, its not a joke. Its a place were men go and are allowed, if not encouraged to treat women in the very sense of the word misogyny. The female group members seem not to have a problem with that, in fact they probably enjoy this a s much as they male counter parts.

The rules for the girls are pretty explicit:

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Woman are expected to be available for sexual use whenever it pleases the guests – there and then.

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The Misogyne Club from the outside:

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I observed some emoting and conversations which could easily be classified as role play. Not very good role play, but role play.

Here an example:

Him:take a seat nina
Nina: o-okay..
Nina sits down, a bit confused because nobody had ever requested her to sit next to him in this club
Him: nice hair cunt
Nina smiles
Nina : thank you
Him: gonna be useful to clean up my boots
Nina stiffens but tries to hide it, she smiles nervously
Him: make your job, cunt
Nina stares at his boots, then leans in. she takes some strands of her hair and rubs them over the surface of his leather boots
Him:: tell me cunt, how many men have you served yet today ?

To be honest , I was crunching a bit when I saw the place and my first thought was: this is a bit over the top. On the other hand, isn’t this just yet another variety of people playing out  their sexual fantasies, just because in Second Life they actually can do so, without doing any harm to anyone? 

However, if this is acceptable, where do we draw the line? Isn’t that exactly the same what a pedophile does, when engaging on so-called (prohibited by TOS) age play?

For those of you, who feel the urge to actually see the place were the pics have been taken, here the taxi. Please visit on your risk its not for the faint hearted.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Belisario%20Isle/121/86/23

Related articles:

Second Life and misogyny:
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/11/second-life-and-misogyny.html

Does this turn you on? Exibition about gender violence in Second Life.
http://www.betterverse.org/2010/11/is-this-turning-you-on-powerful-exhibit-on-gender-violence-in-second-life.html

Hypocrisy in Second Life
http://honour-mcmillan.blogspot.de/2010/11/hypocrisy-in-second-life.html

For those who actually want to look beaten up and abused, there is the right skin.
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Full-Body-Bruised-Skin/1738822

I am probably opening a huge can of worms here, but anyway: whats your take on this? Please tell us your opinion in the comments!

Hottest Online Sex Game

COMMENTS

WORDPRESS: 16
  • comment-avatar

    Caroline. I think you are asking one of the right questions — where do we draw the line? — but you’re not really addressing the main issue, which is “Why do we need to draw a line at all?” If your contention that role playing Gor is acceptable because it’s “just” role play, then surely the same defence can be used, as you seem to note, for any other kind of role play, including sexualized age play. Nor am I very clear why Gorean RP — a culture which endorses (at a fictional level at least) the use of “rape” as a form of discipline — is any less “over the top” than the one you discuss here. After all, it’s role play too, minus the exotic costumes and insect overlords.

    There are a great many reasons why men and women may be drawn to misogynist and violent sexual role play. Most obviously, “BDSM” (note the scare quotes: few well-informed BDSM adherents would accept Gor as a form of BDSM) can appeal to something that some people find attractive, at a sexual or even at a more fundamentally personal level. Why that should be will depend greatly on the individual. For instance, some women who have suffered real life abuse find role playing it therapeutic, because it puts them in control of a simulated situation that victimized them in real life.

    So I don’t think there is a great deal of point in making generalizations about those who partake in this kind of role play. A man who RPs a rapist is very unlikely to be one in real life, and a woman who has sexual fantasies about rape is most certainly not hoping that she gets raped for real. (That said, I know I’d think twice about dating a man who I knew got off on fantasizing about hurting his partner, if only because I find that a rather unattractive quality in the people I hang with.)

    So why query this kind of RP at all? Why, at the most extreme end of the spectrum, is sexualized age play a “bad” thing if it’s “only” role play, and doesn’t involve real children at all?

    The answer, I think, lies in the larger issue of social harm. We have become very aware, as a culture, of the way in which advertisements and the popular media can impact on attitudes towards such things as body image, gender roles, and objectification. The impact of these misogynist images and ideas is measurable and real. And misogynist role play contributes to them, albeit in a very small way. This surely is the reason that role playing child molestation is “bad”: it “normalizes” and perhaps even legitimates a behaviour that we know to have tragic consequences in real life.

    So, a not-so-very-hypothetical scenario for you: two people are role playing a rape scenario, in Gor or at the Misogyne Club (it doesn’t matter which). Does this not in some way contribute or at least confirm certain misogynist attitudes about rape in general?

    And what of the male RPer in this scenario? I’ve stated above that a woman who has rape fantasies doesn’t really want to be raped. Can we be certain that the male RPer is clever and sophisticated enough to make that distinction? Is it not possible, at least some of the time, that the willing participation of the woman involved is not confirming for him the “truth” that female victims of rape really “want it,” and “enjoy” it?

    • comment-avatar
      Abraham Windstorm 3 years

      Hello Caro and hello all Readers,

      the Report you write is a good one and it is asking a good question… Where is a line between a Role Play and more. I don´t know an answer but i have a line for myself. I do agree that the Misogyne can be a Role Play for some People, but for me it is not.. It is a crossed line. In my opinion there is a difference between a Relationship between a Master and a Slave like we know form BDSM and this.. I am sure that there are People in here that do like it.. but please.. This is a Chat.. Not a Dark Room. This Chat is an open one for all People thats true, but in my opinion some things should be hidden for those who don´t know it. I don´t know if you have to be a Member there or you have to pay something for the Membership. But I hope there is a Control… because if there is someone who don´t knows exactly what Misogyne is can be hurt… and also in RL. And thats something that doesn´t belong here.

  • comment-avatar

    Laskya,

    the difference between this and Gor is in my opinion, that Gor is a fantasie world, not a realitsic club. Gor players do not only play the aspect of slaves and mastery, but the Gorean culture and adventures in this fictive world. In Gor people play warriors, politicians, free women (sometimes very powerful free women), outlaws, pirates AND slaves.
    Its a bit like playing ancient rom. In fact many aspects of Gorean and ancient Roman culture are very similar AND the romans had slaves. This club however has the sole purpose of role playing objectification of women.

    Does that make sense?

    • comment-avatar

      Hi Caroline,

      I think it does make a difference, but not in an absolute fashion.

      For instance, much might depend upon the kind of Gorean sim in which one participated. By-the-book Gorean RP tends to attract “lifestylers” and those who actually give credence to the gender views that are so central to the books; other “fun” and “casual” Gorean sims, on the other hand, treat the material much less reverently, and may give greater scope for women players.

      Another issue, I think, is that the books themselves were created as political polemics: they aren’t just fun fantasies, but were written with a very definite (and very misogynist) political intent. That approach to scifi or fantasy fiction isn’t new, of course: writers like Heinlein, LeGuin, Lewis, Bradbury, Asimov, etc., all use fantasy and/or science fiction to comment upon their own cultures and worlds. In the case of John Frederick Lange, Jr. (aka John Norman), he was in part responding in a critical way to the feminist movement of the 60s, 70s and 80s, with a very deliberate suggestion that women were, by nature, made to be submissive. (Check out the Wikipedia page for Norman for a bit more on that.) So, to some degree, role playing Norman’s world is being at least somewhat complicit, knowingly or unknowingly, with the personal misogyny that shaped his fictions.

      I guess it comes down, ultimately, to the degree to which one finds misogyny unacceptable. I don’t think that most reasonable and intelligent people would engage in RP that featured race-based slavery, even in a fantasy context. Slavery itself, of course, is probably a different thing, but would you play a fantasy game in which people of colour were considered inferior, and generally enslaved? Similarly, I doubt that you’d play a fantasy game built around a culture that accepted pedophilia as part of its “culture,” even if the setting is only a “fantasy.”

      For me, the same applies to games that are predicated on the notion that women are inferior, submissive, and more-or-less sexual playthings.

  • comment-avatar

    Laskya,

    first of all thank you for your posts, which are very thoughtful.

    However , I strongly disagree in part and agree in other parts. Let me elaborate a bit

    So-called BTB, or by the books regions of SL-Gor tend to predominantly attract “fiction fans” not live-stylers. In my own experience , BTB role players make a strong distinction between OOC and IC (out of character and in character). They do not treat players of slave characters as slaves when in OOC mode only when In-character, which is the idea of role play really.

    Yes, there are exceptions. But those exceptions are really people who did consent on some kind of a D/s relationship in IC ( usually with a BDSM background) and use the Gor setting for their very private kink. To me there is nothing wrong with that, as it is a fetish between two consenting adults. However, I personally do not enjoy role play with that kind of players, as it tends to be very focussed on the D/s aspect and ignores all the other aspects of fantasy role play such as wars, adventures, politics and other plots that occurred in the books two.

    I do not believe that the books are written with a political intend. Note that the latest books came out in 2013! They do indeed have a philosophical intend. I am sure you agree there is a huge difference between philosophy and politics. Norman tried to show us, the true nature of human being (according to his views about such nature). He tried to show us a mirror, hence the reason he not only suggested that by nature woman have submissive tendencies but also included men´s strive for honor, peoples tendency to defend their home (the Home Stone), the genetic disposition we have to certain talents (the caste system) and cruelty being part of human nature. You find similar suggestions in works of Platon, Aristoteles and Nietsche.

    That does not mean he suggested a corresponding lifestyle. It is more of a reminder, like saying: “Hey, don’t forget were you came from. Only if you understand your past you can understand your present“. Sounds familiar? Of course it does, back in college we heard this before, didn’t we? Did our teacher suggest we should beat up woman because our ancestors did so? Did they suggest we should have slaves because in ancient cultures it was the norm? No, they didn’t, nor did Professor Lange. He did however in another work (Imaginative Sex) suggest that D/s practices and power play is nothing to be embarrassed about, but a legitimate way of getting some extra kick in your bedroom and that it is something natural.

    About your question, if I would role play an environment whereby people are enslaved because of their race. Yes. I would. For example a role play environment like the “Gone with the wind” would actually include that.

    About the legitimacy of pedophile or age play: That is were I certainly would draw the line. Pedophilia is a disorder. Many of those who have that disorder are in a therapy. I can not imagine that role playing such sexual orientation could do them any good. But this is for a psychologist to answer, specialized on that field.

    Carol

    • comment-avatar
      kedawi 3 years

      Caroline and Laskya

      As a noobie to SL who was curious about its sex culture and has had a few casual encounters now, your thoughtful posts helped me focus on the line-drawing question that was in the back of my mind after a few of these encounters. My own SL rp conduct went further than anything I ever have or would (?) do in RL. My conclusion is that in the end no one is ever dominated against their will at the Misogyne Club or other bdsm sites in SL. You can always log-out or teleport away. There is no slavery in SL, racially-based, gender based, etc. I think its also relevant to the discussion that other participants are age-verified adults (as best that can be determined). Different considerations would apply to participation by children.

      I recognize that these points do not entirely refute Laskya’s point about normalization or legitimization of what would be censorious conduct in RL, but, they do weaken it. Even the misogynist in SL “knows” he is not really dominating or abusing anyone. Still, it keeps me thinking about how far I should go in an SL encounter.

      Kedawi

  • comment-avatar

    Record Traffic and no more comments?
    Are you all shy all of a sudden?

    • comment-avatar
      Jessica Pink 3 years

      Caroline

      Thank you for your article on the Misogyne Club. It is healthy that these issues are debated openly. We at Misogyne Club are not a secret society. I have been playing there for a couple of years and would like to offer my humble view of the place and why I enjoy it so much.

      We are not a simple sex club. We get many men coming for a free fuck, but they are not the norm. They can get disappointed that we lack the equipment. The emphasis is not sex, it is more on humiliation. This is achieved by our encouragement of open chat. At many sims, people lock onto each other in private, even though they fuck in full view of everyone. Others stand around in silence and voyeur, wondering what is going on in someone’s head. At Misogyne Club we promote talking openly. Men telling women why we are inferior. Yes, it can get far-fetched at times, but it is mostly in fun. The best plays I have enjoyed there is with a few people, where I am told to remove my clothes so they can compare my tits with another girls, and I am spoken about like I am not there. I am merely a piece of meat for them to look at.

      This openness encourages others and creates an atmosphere I have not found elsewhere. It may be why we now have well over a thousand members of roughly equal men and women. Many of whom are long-time members, and I can count as friends.

      There are many places that cater better than we do for simple or rough sex. We do not in fact have a sex bed in the club. Neither are we a BDSM club. At the clubs last location we had a variety of menial chores to do, such as scrubbing floors, or shining mens shoes. Even a giant hamster wheel to run in. We are in the process of re-establishing some of these at our new home so there is more for women to do than twirl around on poles and serve drinks.

      The club rules as displayed on the wall are simply there to set the scene. I do not know of any woman getting ejected for ‘wearing trousers’ or ‘sitting on furniture’. They may get some verbal abuse, but that is what they expect, and what many come for. Some like to play the feminist role only to be ‘put in their place’ by dominant males.

      On the down side – I admit to some – the word Cunt is over-used. It now means little as its effect has worn off. I much prefer someone with a little imagination who creates a nickname, rather than, “Come here, Cunt.” But I take the rough with the smooth.

      So to answer your question; “where do we draw a line?” I suggest this. Draw it wherever your personal limits take you. If you don’t enjoy fucking with doggies then do not go to many of the sims that promote bestiality. The same goes for the toilet / sewer / rape places where you can expect to be used and abused, normally on a one-to-one IM basis.

      There are many sims available catering to all tastes. If you want something more ‘pub-like’ but still adult play, may I recommend Hooligans Club. But for the many men who come to exert their authority over females rather than wash the dishes in real life, and for the women who want to escape that pile of ironing and kneel at a man’s feet for a bit, may I highly recommend an evening at the Misogyne Club.

      Thank you
      Jessica Pink, inferior cunt
      (jessicapinkpanties popstar)
      Ps If the club installs an ironing board, I’m off. I know my limits.

      • comment-avatar

        Jessica,

        very good post. Its always insightfull to get information from actual players involved. So you enjoy being humiliated or you enjoy the banter around this kind of role play?

      • comment-avatar
        Johanna 3 years

        Hello dear Jessica,

        I would like to ask you about those men you can call friends and who you meet in the Misogyne Club: When you talk with them in IM do they talk to you as a “normal” adult?
        Do they respect you?

        I suppose that they do. And if so (and I hope so…), I personally would declare that club indeed as a BDSM-club with emphasis on the D/s-part of BDSM and especially “serving” (and isn’t this a nice pun ;)? ) the public-humiliation-fetish.
        BDSM is not all about SM aka Sadism/Masochism (even though its kind of sadistic to “use” women like that and masochistic to like it like that).
        And BDSM in SL mustn’t need Poseballs and other instruments/implements/furniture etc.
        Roleplay through emotes is much more versatile than stupid “ball-hopping”… ^^ At least for me.

        What you do there is what we in Germany call “Kopfkino”: meaning something like mental cinema, inner cinema, mind’s eye… There seems to be no good word for it in English.

        Just my (quite late) few cents…

        • comment-avatar

          Jo,

          the word you were looking for is : “Imagination”

          /me waves towards the sun, knowing that she is there somewhere on the other side of the sun enjoying herself. 🙂

  • comment-avatar

    […] als mein privater Rückzugsort war und die nun Teil des Simverbundes von Neuville-sur Mer ist. Caroline’s Adventures berichtete auch schon über den Club.   In Neuville kollidierte dann das RP im Club mit dem RP in Neuville und so entschlossen wir, dass […]

  • comment-avatar

    […] für jemanden einen Club gebaut, Blaby war da und ist vom Bau her begeistert und SEO-Spezialistin Caroline berichtete auch schon deutlich früher darüber bei sich. Gemeint ist der englische "Misogyne […]

  • comment-avatar
    Jelissa 3 years

    Stay away from these type of places that are offensive to your views. It’s like going to a bar and becoming offended if there are people visibly drinking. Obliviously, there are women out there that like this idea and are attracted to it and actively fund their RL boyfriends and Husbands because it brings them money. While the use of college-defined terminology taught from schools such as “mysgonist” sounds logical, in the end they are meaningless words hidden behind the sheets of propaganda spreaded through the western world. There are more important things at matter than worrying about what some random persons do in their spare-time in a virtual world. What would be more concerning, a RL economy that’s going inside out, or some virtual world hosted on a dual-core CPU processor at dirt-cheap prices yet gaged to the life to SL accounts.

    People will do what they want, when they want whether it is considered politically correct in the current or future generation, especially online. The owners pay money, they set up the places and they run them the way they like. If you are just a visitor and have no ownership, your pretty much just another busy-body. The least you can do, as with the others, is to send LL tickets and write blogs about your dislikes. In return, you hopefully vanquish the ill-will which was perceived of yourself by the existence of these themed-typed of sims. Affirmatively and there are no rules created by Linden Labs against it. Use your adult judgement. For most like yourselves, it’s very easy for the like to protest online fields, yet ironically I don’t see these very protesters in the real-world going out to Kahoots and your local-strip clubs and protesting that. Perhaps because your type is afraid of violating the rights of other women to expose themselves in a democracy country? This is no middle-east, my friend. Women both online and Offline are allowed to explore their sexuality as long as their the age of their country.There’s a wide-range of LGBT on SL too, so what you perceive to be ‘harmful’ to a female, is just another dude behind a female avatar pretending to be a female to do the very things that you personally despise.

    In the meanwhile, you are receiving hits on your blogs for these type of articles. Strange how it works both ways. Your not defending women at all, just another speck in the sea of chaos.

  • comment-avatar

    […] or an ersatz of this feeling is there. Carol did actually a few of this, remember her visit at the Misogyne Club, one of her most commented post, well this is the idea I intend to […]

  • comment-avatar
    Callisto8413 1 year

    If you think this is bad, you should Search Stepford while on SL. No, the town wasn’t based on the novel or movies. And I am not sure even exists anymore. They use to Bar-B-Que the women there. The women were meat.

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